550isport

First off, I love Porsche. This is not to flame, but rather really contemplate the future status of our beloved 4 door sports cars from Dingolfing. So here's the question -

Does Porsche really have objectively superior engineering and performance with respect to cars other than the iconic 911?

The 911 is the longest running model of any car made. Its thus the most developed road car in the world. Of course its brilliant. You can't assume everything Porsche does is going to be as fantastic as the 911 though. Example, the Cayenne. I had an X5 and have driven Cayennes. To me they feel heavier from the driver's seat (because they are) and they handle as well as, but no better than an X5. Their impressive power is completely cancelled out by their heft in all but the turbo models. And here is the real deal breaker: Ask a Porsche salesman on a test drive about heads up display, bluetooth, real time traffic, ipod, dynamic brake drying etc... and watch him or her start sputtering like a Pinto with 300k on the odometer and sink into their seat. A vespa has more technology than a modern porsche. At this point the salesperson has sat back up in their seat and regained composure enough to say: with porsche it's all about the drive. I buy that 100% in regard to the 911, and 0% in regard to the Cayenne. In all fairness, Porsche does offer the GTS now which is a lowered Cayenne on track ready suspension (4 seater, not 5 like the regular Cayenne, and the GTS has apparently lost whatever off-road ability the Cayenne had - like we care). But interestingly, the GTS extreme sports package is apparently what was required to decisively beat a standard 4.8 X5 around a track. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that the GTS's ride may cause a few fillings to loosen on an urban commute...

SO WHAT ABOUT THIS PANAMERA? Can Porsche really apply engineering superior enough to overcome the near perfect balance which the 5 series strikes between comfort and performance? Or, as they did in the case of the Cayenne, produce a more expensive, higher status competitor in the Panamera, that needs comparatively more power to tussle with its equivalent 5 series rival and offers handling which is either no better than the competing 5, or, in the alternative, offer a track ready mega sports package with a bone crunching ride (which even the M5 doesn't have)?

I guess what I'm saying is, In regard to a 4 doors sports saloon, I don't think Porsche can rework the equation to get significantly better results than BMW.

Anyone agree??

NPe

My experiences
I my opinon the Cayenne did only have one BIG advantage to the X5 in comparison.
And the reason for that was the 500hp turbo engine.
It pulled like a mad beast!! Concidering sitting in a 2.3ton truck.

Beside that, a Cayenne is not value for the money.

I guess the same situation will occur in the Panamera/F10 situation.
If you go for the top of the line model, Porsche will eat BMW, but all versions bellow will be owned by BMW.
And the reason for that is pretty obvious. Top notch "regular" cars is BMWs trade mark.
Not cheap but still with a regular car expenses.

If it wasn?t for that, I would commute in a Maserati Quattroporte

Allen

Having owned an older '95 E34 525, '90 E30 325 and currently owning a '97 993 911 and a '08 E60 535...the thing that stricks me is how much better the quality of construction/assembly is on the older models than the newer models...both marques. My new 535 has more rattles right now than my 13 year old 250K mile 525 did when it was totalled...and that is the truth. I have several friends who have newer 911s and older 911s. Almost to the car...the older ones are much more solid feeling than the older ones...in terms of rattles and creaks. Others may chime in with diffrent observations, but this is my objective experience. The newer cars do out perform the older ones, but it's NOT all about performance...I need quite when I drive...they could have delivered my car without a stereo at all and I would have missed it...that's WHY I bought a BMW instead of a something else!!

I think BMW AND Porsche had better step up their game in quality...I am absolutely floored by how poor my E60 is built when compared to my E34. I had to get another car, and there was nothing else I wanted except a 5 series. But had I known the rattles, creaks, etc would be as bad as they are, I would have looked harder at other cars.

So I guess my point is not so much if Porsche will make a better sedan than BMW, but if someone ELSE is gonna make one better than BOTH Porsche and BMW.

swajames

Looks like your question focuses on engineering and performance and not value. By that metric, and on the basis that the E60 doesn't really have any Porsche equivalent, I do think that the current Porsche range is subjectively and objectively better than the equivalent BMW and it's pretty reasonable to assume that the Panamera probably won't be any different? (FWIW, I think the Panamera competes more with the 7 series and not the 5). The Boxster and Cayman are better cars than the Z4 Roadster and Z4 Coupe, and I disagree with you on the Cayenne - it is a better on and off road SUV than the X5 (excepting the 6 cylinder Cayenne, I'd rather have the X5). The 911 arguably has no direct BMW competitor (perhaps the 6) but again, even then the 911 would win out for reasons you highlight in your post. No doubt in my mind that the best real world cars and SUVs are made by BMW, but the best (real world) sports cars and sports SUV's are Porsche.

westcoast550

My sense of the Panamera is that the BMW CS will be the answer/target depending which side of the argument you take. I don't see it as targetting the 5, maybe the 7 . I'm a bit of a purist (when it suits me ) So I struggle to see why they are doing it in ther 1st place , but given they are I hope it's spectacular and moves the needle a little higher. As "Consumers" we will be the winners , and be rewarded with even better cars..............even BMW's.... IMHO !

EBMCS03

I agree.

EBMCS03

Did anyone watch last weeks 5th gear? where they raced the X5 4.8se against the Cayenne GTS?

westcoast550

No, what was the outcome ??

swajames

here you go, here's the video:

http://www.eurocarblog.com/post/633/fifth-...-vs-cayenne-gts

1esquire

To me, this whole thread plays into the whole theory of automotive authenticity and what it means for a vehicle to be an "[insert brand name]". It was odd to think of BMW creating off road vehicles at first, but completely preposterous to think of Porsche doing the same. If it had not been for the VW/Audi/Porsche group, and Porsche's ability to use the Toureg base, I doubt they ever would have conceived an SUV by themselves.

Someone above said that as consumers we all win, but I think the opposite. Every time two car companies share ownership or resources or engines, etc., it dilutes the essence of the brand. If BMW starts selling twin turbo engines to GM to put in the new Monte Carlo, there will be less authenticity to having a BMW. When Porsche takes a Toureg and slaps big Cayenne bumper on the front with some engine upgrades, it dilutes the brand. A car that tries to appeal to everyone will be a flop. You can't have performance handling with lots of storage space in a station wagon body with all wheel drive and lots of techno goodies but environmentally friendly engine with a 0-60 time of less than 5 seconds that you can track on the weekends. Not possible. When car companies start making compromises on their missions in order to attract more buyers, someone loses out: the original brand enthusiasts.

In my opinion, the fact that BMW is not just a brand of another automaker (like Pontiac or Lincoln) is the reason they can focus on their core group of buyers and enthusiasts. To the extent they try to inflate their appeal by making their cars "softer" or by making vehicles that appeal to more sales numbers (X5) while straying from their core attributes, the worse the situation.

When Ferrari starts selling SUVs and Lamborghini makes a duelly pick up truck with scissor doors, then we will all know that the end of days is near.