v_therussian

So first the F10 lost out the comparo against the old-body A6 (READ HERE, if you don't believe me). And now this:

SOURCE
here's some supporting evidence:





This car wins out in almost all categories. The only thing that would make me want to test drive it before buying it - if I wanted to trade my E60 in the first place, that is - is that tiny mention of understeer. But the F10 is said to have some of that too. I couldn't find weight distribution and center of gravity measurements, nor any objective cornering data is available. But if this thing can pull "more g's" than the F10, it is basically a no-brainer... What. A. Shame. I've never really regarded Audi above BMW until now. I still see lots of benefits to the F10, but with A6 weighing almost a 1,000 pounds less with an engine just as powerful, but with a wider torque plateau? I'm just about sold. Check-mate, F10.



And I was just beginning to like it too...

skelevirus

wow just saw this. damn >3500lbs?! the F10 is ridiculously heave in comparo. Bumping for justice!!

luigi524td

Will the F10 be featured in the new A&E Series http://megalomedia.com/heavy-casting.html

v_therussian

Audi still shows its FWD'ish proportions a little when you view from the side. If you don't mind the fact that the headlights are stretched around the front corners to minimize visual length of the front overhang, and just look strictly at the distance between the forward edge of the front bumper and the front axle line, it clearly shows. It doesn't help that the distance between the front wheels and forward cuts of the front doors is smallish. But if they can pull of a near 50/50 weight distribution with a low center of gravity, this car will not only go faster, but handle better.

Also, when they said the car's handling slots between the current 3er and 5er somewhere, I think they made a VERY bold claim - which, if true, would kill any enthusiasts' interest in the F10. What a pity - going from their greatest 5er platform ever (E6x) onto a porker that will get out-handled by an Audi! :thumbsdown:

sdg1871

Well Vlad, I love BMW. I always had since my dad had a 1976 2002 and we used run road ralleys in it with dad serving as sriver and me as navigator. I grew up always always always wanting a BMW. I've had 2 V8 5 Series (my beloved dearly depated E39 2003 540i Sport and my current beloved E60 2009 550i Sport). And why have I always loved BMW?? The handling.

From an enthusiast's perspective, I cannot understand why BMW ripped out so much of the aluminum when it replaced the E60 woth the F10. The massive weight gain is a cardinal sin against handling.

When my lease expires in 2012, I will still look at the F10. But I will be looking at all of its competitors with a fully open mind. I've owned 2 Infinitis including a wonderful 2006 M45 Sport so while I am loyal to BMW, I am not blindly so.

I do not see a good reason to spend the $$$ premium to get a BMW if the handling is not there. A Lexus or Infiniti, on average, is a far more reliable car than BMW. Lexus, of course, is not fun to drive which is why I never got one.

The test drives I take will determine what I do as, to me, fun to drive comes first, second and third. And massive weight = NOT fun to drive.

swajames

All down to cost, I suspect my friend... BMW is reducing its own cost by using less expensive materials in the manufacturing process, and the net result is the much heavier car and little to none of those cost savings seemingly being passed on to the customer. Audi set and achieved an engineering goal of reducing weight compared to the outgoing A6. BMW on the other hand set a goal to reduce the use of those more expensive materials that helped keep the E60 weight to a minimum and it piled on the pounds as it built a car which now has more in common with the Mercedes and Lexus philosophies of today than the BMW engineering principles of yesteryear. Nothing wrong with that, and customers like it, but it's taken BMW in a different direction and increasingly it's Audi which seems to be the one focusing most on things that matter to an enthusiast.

mmitev

I have read a few A6 vs. F10 vs. E-class tests here in Europe by now and no one ever said the A6 had better handling than the F10! Also, the lower weight of the A6 is mentioned, but its rather cosmetic, is it not? At least the European models they were comparing (no V8 I think). Difference was like 100 pounds or something.

Rather, what particularly surprised me is that the test in Auto Bild, a magazine well known for its pro-VW Group stance (VWs and Audis always win the tests), clearly said that the A6 still understeers, and that the F10 is definitely the better car for spirited driving.

I have no idea of the US media landscape, but I suspect that in this case the initial A6 comments might not be much more than well-targeted PR spin.

vkhong

Assuming the 2012 A6 will have conventional anti-roll bars, one could use a less-stiff front roll bar to dial out the understeer. The Porsche 911 has quite a bit of front overhang. I believe it is designed for shortening the wheel base with the benefit of more responsive handling.

I could be wrong, since the Audi is front-engined whereas the Porsche 911 is rear-engined.

sdg1871

As usual, I agree with you. It is just sad to see BMW turn away from the enthusiasts. The huge weight gain is unforgiveable. So many of our respected members have turned away from the F10 and embraced the M3. But it may very well be a profitable move for BMW.

v_therussian

Honestly, my E60 is THE best handling of this size car I've ever experienced. And I've driven plenty of different cars - whether ones I've owned, or back when I was in the car business. It is seriously disconcerting to me to read that an A6 will be ~1000lbs lighter than the new 5er - that's basically BMW not only saying "people will buy our cars whether they are more expensive than any competition, or not", but also saying "not only are we going to raise prices, but we will give them an inferior product, and these idiots will still worship us". That is where I am with the F10 right now.

Personally, my dad had a Jag and a few various Benzes, so in my case, I've always chased the dream of owning a BMW as a kid - that was the one thing that I wanted to "one-up" my old man with. Funny how brands make it deep into family history, huh?


It cannot be PR, when we are talking about basic principles of physics - weight. The more weight you have, the worse the handling. There is no going around this.

As for the Auto Bild revue you're referring to, I believe it is a review that included the "old" A6 - not the 2012 one. I believe the new model is lighter than the old - it is lighter than my 2001 A6 was (3800lbs)! So a LOT will change. It is very hard to mess up a handling of a car, when you are reducing it's weight so much.

911 is a different beast - it has the bulk of it's mass concentrated in the rear of the car, behind the rear axle. This creates a very unique balance. That said, you may very well have the answer to the understeering problem. IF this even will be a problem at all - I think, if Audi learns how to place their engines further back in the chassis, they'll have M3-beaters in the new A6's! Yes, I said it! Check and see how much the E9x M3 weighs, get back at me

I would love to get an M3, but at this point I can't justify it. I would have been really happy with a sub-3500lbs F10 535Xi with a stick and dynamic drive package. Even if it does look a little "meh" to me without the M-sport! And yet, it weighs a whole lot more than that, so I constantly find myself trying to justify BMW to other brands - like Audi, Infiniti... even Hyundai, in some small ways! WHY?! Why would we continue paying these premiums, if the cars are NOT getting better as cars. They are better "living rooms on wheels" - sure! But if oil runs out tomorrow, and we have to sell our cars as scrap metal, something tells me aluminum will bring a much higher premium over steel...

This IS checkmate IMHO. To me it is. For the F10. I still love BMW, they make several cars I really love. One of them is X6 40d, which is NOT sold in the States - also shame. M3's are great, 1 series have what BMW originally was - if they are a bit... well, ugly. Just that the F10 vs A6 battle seems more and more predetermined. Maybe I'm wrong and Audi will mess up REALLY BIG on the suspension settings... but let's be honest, what are the chances of that happening?