So This Happened This Morning: Catastrophic Engine Failure In Dramatic Fashion
03-22-2016, 07:21 PM
#21
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My Ride: 2006 BMW 525ix (N52 Engine)
Damn, glad you're ok!
Iv been following the build on occasion, I own a E60 525xi. And iv been thinking to get a E61 as a 2nd car/project. But i cant find anything that I could afford (im a college student, im looking at like wrecked cars lol).
My 525 is a bit disappointing in terms of power, the comfort of the 5series kills the "feel" of the power, and the n52 dosent have much aftermarket. Been thinking about the N54 motor swap, but i doubt it would be easy swap. The trans probably would be able to handle the engine and id need different computers and probably special software to reprogram
Not gonna lie if you were going to do a swap, a S82 would be awesome.
Iv been following the build on occasion, I own a E60 525xi. And iv been thinking to get a E61 as a 2nd car/project. But i cant find anything that I could afford (im a college student, im looking at like wrecked cars lol).
My 525 is a bit disappointing in terms of power, the comfort of the 5series kills the "feel" of the power, and the n52 dosent have much aftermarket. Been thinking about the N54 motor swap, but i doubt it would be easy swap. The trans probably would be able to handle the engine and id need different computers and probably special software to reprogram
Not gonna lie if you were going to do a swap, a S82 would be awesome.
03-22-2016, 08:32 PM
#22
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What really gets me is the difference in torque between the two, I love torque and in a daily-driven vehicle it is so useful and you can capitalize on the engine's performance all the time, with an engine like the S85 I feel like it would be a tease in a DD, never being able to extract all of that 8,00rpm V10 "symphony" would drive me crazy. Not to mention the terrible gas mileage and inherent S85 reliability issues. I am not saying the N54 is a maintenance peach but it is much better suited for my intended use and personal preference. The fact that it gets about double the MPG of the S85 and is a direct drop-in engine for my car strengthens its case.
The N54 is a pretty impressive engine. It's obvious flaw to me was the exhaust note but I somehow lucked out with my custom system and have IMO (but others will agree) one of the best sounding exhaust systems so that drawback has been crossed off my list.
If the E60 M5 was equipped with the S62 and there were legitimate twin turbo upgrades for it then I would give it some serious consideration. I would do very bad things to have an S62 with two small turbos which amplify it's already meaty and useable powerband.
Those are my thoughts,
Evan
03-23-2016, 07:34 AM
#23
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That topic comes up a lot but the S85 doesn't do anything for me. I know it is a special race-derived engine, I know it revs very high, I know it makes a cool noise. But that engine would need a $10,000 supercharger to be in the same league as my full bolt-on, hybrid turbo, N54.
What really gets me is the difference in torque between the two, I love torque and in a daily-driven vehicle it is so useful and you can capitalize on the engine's performance all the time, with an engine like the S85 I feel like it would be a tease in a DD, never being able to extract all of that 8,00rpm V10 "symphony" would drive me crazy. Not to mention the terrible gas mileage and inherent S85 reliability issues. I am not saying the N54 is a maintenance peach but it is much better suited for my intended use and personal preference. The fact that it gets about double the MPG of the S85 and is a direct drop-in engine for my car strengthens its case.
The N54 is a pretty impressive engine. It's obvious flaw to me was the exhaust note but I somehow lucked out with my custom system and have IMO (but others will agree) one of the best sounding exhaust systems so that drawback has been crossed off my list.
If the E60 M5 was equipped with the S62 and there were legitimate twin turbo upgrades for it then I would give it some serious consideration. I would do very bad things to have an S62 with two small turbos which amplify it's already meaty and useable powerband.
Those are my thoughts,
Evan
What really gets me is the difference in torque between the two, I love torque and in a daily-driven vehicle it is so useful and you can capitalize on the engine's performance all the time, with an engine like the S85 I feel like it would be a tease in a DD, never being able to extract all of that 8,00rpm V10 "symphony" would drive me crazy. Not to mention the terrible gas mileage and inherent S85 reliability issues. I am not saying the N54 is a maintenance peach but it is much better suited for my intended use and personal preference. The fact that it gets about double the MPG of the S85 and is a direct drop-in engine for my car strengthens its case.
The N54 is a pretty impressive engine. It's obvious flaw to me was the exhaust note but I somehow lucked out with my custom system and have IMO (but others will agree) one of the best sounding exhaust systems so that drawback has been crossed off my list.
If the E60 M5 was equipped with the S62 and there were legitimate twin turbo upgrades for it then I would give it some serious consideration. I would do very bad things to have an S62 with two small turbos which amplify it's already meaty and useable powerband.
Those are my thoughts,
Evan
I would have to agree with you. Having owned both an E39 M5 and E60 M5, I would easily pick the S62 to throw in a car before the S85. Parts for both are a little more on the high end, but the exhaust note on the S62 is pure sex.
With that being said, the N54 has been the most bulletproof engine in any car I have owned so I see what you're saying about keeping it. Looking forward to seeing your progress from here on out. Glad to see you're okay and the car will live to see another day!
03-23-2016, 03:15 PM
#24
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Funny you mention the 7,100rpm, I noticed that too and I can only count on one hand the amount of times I have seen the engine rev above 7,000rpm. The other times I recall were when the transmission was acting up. I usually shift at 6,300-6,500 (shift light is at 6,300) and rarely even see a log show 6,950 or 7,000rpm. I mean maybe 3-4 times out of 100s of logs.
How much oil is needed for an analysis, I just pulled my turbos a might be able to gather some if I only need a few drops, most was lost when the engine blew.
No Meth, No NOS, I was running 91oct with E85 for roughly an E35 blend, I think it is ~6gal of E85 in an 18.5gal tank.
Evan
How much oil is needed for an analysis, I just pulled my turbos a might be able to gather some if I only need a few drops, most was lost when the engine blew.
No Meth, No NOS, I was running 91oct with E85 for roughly an E35 blend, I think it is ~6gal of E85 in an 18.5gal tank.
Evan
Assuming you have stock turbos, somehow you hit 23.3 psi which is more than I've ever seen even on my meth injected 135i. Not only that, but at such high RPM the turbos have to taper quite a bit to prevent knock and due to their small size. It seems to me that the high boost at high RPM was what caused the thrown rod.
Here's a log I have from my 135i during a dyno of 462 rwhp on stock turbos: datazap.me | pnosker | Log 1458774263
You can see the AFR is stable and well below 14 when under WOT, especially near redline. Also the boost tapers off as RPM increases due to the turbos running out of steam. I have downpipes and an AA Race intercooler which may be why my boost is lower than yours (cooler air = higher density).
Anyway, share your JB4 settings if you could and I'll see if we can piece anything together.
03-23-2016, 05:22 PM
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Ah thanks, the signature doesn't indicate what he has but after looking through some threads it looks like hybrid hexon turbos?
Either way, JB4 settings would be interesting to see.
I looked more carefully at the logs and it looks like cyl 1 ignition advance was way out of whack compared to the others; at one point after the overrev it was at 19.8 while all other cylinders were at 4.09. Pretty much throughout the run it was far off the other 5 cylinders. Even early in the run it's at 0 where the rest are at 14.2 under partial load. It seems like it's possible Cyl 1 was pulling advance as far as it could.
Also, what a fricken car. Damn. Can't wait to read more once it's back in action again.
Either way, JB4 settings would be interesting to see.
I looked more carefully at the logs and it looks like cyl 1 ignition advance was way out of whack compared to the others; at one point after the overrev it was at 19.8 while all other cylinders were at 4.09. Pretty much throughout the run it was far off the other 5 cylinders. Even early in the run it's at 0 where the rest are at 14.2 under partial load. It seems like it's possible Cyl 1 was pulling advance as far as it could.
Also, what a fricken car. Damn. Can't wait to read more once it's back in action again.
03-23-2016, 09:49 PM
#27
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Ah thanks, the signature doesn't indicate what he has but after looking through some threads it looks like hybrid hexon turbos?
Either way, JB4 settings would be interesting to see.
I looked more carefully at the logs and it looks like cyl 1 ignition advance was way out of whack compared to the others; at one point after the overrev it was at 19.8 while all other cylinders were at 4.09. Pretty much throughout the run it was far off the other 5 cylinders. Even early in the run it's at 0 where the rest are at 14.2 under partial load. It seems like it's possible Cyl 1 was pulling advance as far as it could.
Also, what a fricken car. Damn. Can't wait to read more once it's back in action again.
Either way, JB4 settings would be interesting to see.
I looked more carefully at the logs and it looks like cyl 1 ignition advance was way out of whack compared to the others; at one point after the overrev it was at 19.8 while all other cylinders were at 4.09. Pretty much throughout the run it was far off the other 5 cylinders. Even early in the run it's at 0 where the rest are at 14.2 under partial load. It seems like it's possible Cyl 1 was pulling advance as far as it could.
Also, what a fricken car. Damn. Can't wait to read more once it's back in action again.
I running Hexon RR550 turbos, my last dyno with them when I was still AWD was 545awhp, 510awtq (I am now RWD)
For JB4 Settings I was running a G5 board with V32.0 firmware, JB4 Hybrid PI E85 backend via MHD, N20 TMAP sensor, and a Map 6 with a progressive boost map peaking at 22psi around 5k and tapering to 18psi.
Evan
03-24-2016, 12:26 PM
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I have stored screen shots of my JB4 user settings but am having a hard time finding them, I know I have them so expect me to dig them up soon.
I running Hexon RR550 turbos, my last dyno with them when I was still AWD was 545awhp, 510awtq (I am now RWD)
For JB4 Settings I was running a G5 board with V32.0 firmware, JB4 Hybrid PI E85 backend via MHD, N20 TMAP sensor, and a Map 6 with a progressive boost map peaking at 22psi around 5k and tapering to 18psi.
Evan
I running Hexon RR550 turbos, my last dyno with them when I was still AWD was 545awhp, 510awtq (I am now RWD)
For JB4 Settings I was running a G5 board with V32.0 firmware, JB4 Hybrid PI E85 backend via MHD, N20 TMAP sensor, and a Map 6 with a progressive boost map peaking at 22psi around 5k and tapering to 18psi.
Evan
The way it works on my JB4 G5 on the same firmware on map 6 with meth enabled is that when the JB4 detects the load of meth injection via PWM it assumes it's properly injecting and then increases boost. If the meth runs out it sees a load change and restricts increased boost for safety.
Now I'm not exactly sure how you have your JB4 G5 setup since you clearly have some serious tuning done, but I would imagine that if you have it configured for meth injection unintentionally and something else hooked up to the meth leads, or if there's some logic circuit issue with your board, it could have demanded more boost than was safe at the time.
I remember in firmware 27.8 the meth regulation system changed. There was now a mode to disable boost pulling when normally it would be triggered by a timing retard (called option 3) as well as other safety mode supposed to be driven off other indicators.
Still, this doesn't explain the weird ignition retard log of ign_1 compared to 2-6.
It would seem to me that possibly you have a bad injector or one that was coded wrong, or possibly a bad plug or coil. That in itself probably caused the misfires you were trying to diagnose. I don't remember the numbering of the JB4 ignition curves so I'm not sure which curve aligns to which cylinder.
Anyway, assuming you unintentionally have meth enabled with one of the less-safe failsafe modes for normal meth users, I would guess you car tried to pull timing of the misfiring cylinder but your turbos held normal boost. The reason I would guess it's an injector vs coil/plug is that the AFR seems way too high for the AFR_2 bank suggesting there was a lot more oxygen than acceptable under load and reduced fuel. Though this could happen if there was unburnt fuel due to lack of spark. However under such high boost and hot turbos, I would half-expect some fuel to be burnt going into your exhaust with that amount of O2.
So, if that's correct, your turbos were throwing in a lot of cold air even though one cylinder wasn't firing properly, the extra hot lean burn mixture probably was enough to cause significant detonation and an unbalanced load on your crank and rods allowing the massive block destruction.
04-08-2016, 08:07 PM
#29
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Thanks Evan. Do you have any settings for meth? The logs show meth on all the runs, as if it's trying to trigger injection-- is anything hooked up to the meth leads on your JB4? Maybe your firmware is setup to use that log space to store other info, not sure.
The way it works on my JB4 G5 on the same firmware on map 6 with meth enabled is that when the JB4 detects the load of meth injection via PWM it assumes it's properly injecting and then increases boost. If the meth runs out it sees a load change and restricts increased boost for safety.
Now I'm not exactly sure how you have your JB4 G5 setup since you clearly have some serious tuning done, but I would imagine that if you have it configured for meth injection unintentionally and something else hooked up to the meth leads, or if there's some logic circuit issue with your board, it could have demanded more boost than was safe at the time.
I remember in firmware 27.8 the meth regulation system changed. There was now a mode to disable boost pulling when normally it would be triggered by a timing retard (called option 3) as well as other safety mode supposed to be driven off other indicators.
Still, this doesn't explain the weird ignition retard log of ign_1 compared to 2-6.
It would seem to me that possibly you have a bad injector or one that was coded wrong, or possibly a bad plug or coil. That in itself probably caused the misfires you were trying to diagnose. I don't remember the numbering of the JB4 ignition curves so I'm not sure which curve aligns to which cylinder.
Anyway, assuming you unintentionally have meth enabled with one of the less-safe failsafe modes for normal meth users, I would guess you car tried to pull timing of the misfiring cylinder but your turbos held normal boost. The reason I would guess it's an injector vs coil/plug is that the AFR seems way too high for the AFR_2 bank suggesting there was a lot more oxygen than acceptable under load and reduced fuel. Though this could happen if there was unburnt fuel due to lack of spark. However under such high boost and hot turbos, I would half-expect some fuel to be burnt going into your exhaust with that amount of O2.
So, if that's correct, your turbos were throwing in a lot of cold air even though one cylinder wasn't firing properly, the extra hot lean burn mixture probably was enough to cause significant detonation and an unbalanced load on your crank and rods allowing the massive block destruction.
The way it works on my JB4 G5 on the same firmware on map 6 with meth enabled is that when the JB4 detects the load of meth injection via PWM it assumes it's properly injecting and then increases boost. If the meth runs out it sees a load change and restricts increased boost for safety.
Now I'm not exactly sure how you have your JB4 G5 setup since you clearly have some serious tuning done, but I would imagine that if you have it configured for meth injection unintentionally and something else hooked up to the meth leads, or if there's some logic circuit issue with your board, it could have demanded more boost than was safe at the time.
I remember in firmware 27.8 the meth regulation system changed. There was now a mode to disable boost pulling when normally it would be triggered by a timing retard (called option 3) as well as other safety mode supposed to be driven off other indicators.
Still, this doesn't explain the weird ignition retard log of ign_1 compared to 2-6.
It would seem to me that possibly you have a bad injector or one that was coded wrong, or possibly a bad plug or coil. That in itself probably caused the misfires you were trying to diagnose. I don't remember the numbering of the JB4 ignition curves so I'm not sure which curve aligns to which cylinder.
Anyway, assuming you unintentionally have meth enabled with one of the less-safe failsafe modes for normal meth users, I would guess you car tried to pull timing of the misfiring cylinder but your turbos held normal boost. The reason I would guess it's an injector vs coil/plug is that the AFR seems way too high for the AFR_2 bank suggesting there was a lot more oxygen than acceptable under load and reduced fuel. Though this could happen if there was unburnt fuel due to lack of spark. However under such high boost and hot turbos, I would half-expect some fuel to be burnt going into your exhaust with that amount of O2.
So, if that's correct, your turbos were throwing in a lot of cold air even though one cylinder wasn't firing properly, the extra hot lean burn mixture probably was enough to cause significant detonation and an unbalanced load on your crank and rods allowing the massive block destruction.
Evan
04-08-2016, 08:07 PM
#30
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Put some more work in today. The engine and trans are now ready to be removed and I am assessing the best way to do this considering my garages limitations. The upside of doing all this at home is I can go and tinker at my convenience and I don't take up space in someone's shop, but the downside if the lack of proper tools and adequate space. I will probably buy a basic engine crane and transmission-style jack. I had thoughts to install the engine with the trans attached but I will likely do them separate.
Most of the components which are now removed have been cleaned and, for the most part, are ready to be reinstalled. I am also cleaning the wagon as I go , both all the oil from the engine failure and just dirt/grime from 100,000+ miles of use. Can't wait to get the MASSIVE 6AT and transfer case outta there! It is so big and so stupid.
I didn't take too many photos but here are a few.
Evan
Glorified paper-weight
I will probably pick up some more robust and taller stands to give me enough clearance to slide the trans in and out from under the wagon.
Dirty
Clean!
Custom "finish" on my lower rear strut brace, thanks to oil and fire!
The cooling line from the block was in need of replacing
All the fluids!
So flippin' functional
6AT cooling lines removed.....
...forever
Belt-driven accessories removed
Exhaust, heat shields, and driveshaft removed
Differential and axles removed
Some comparison shots of the 535xi 6AT differential vs the E60 M5 LSD
Most of the components which are now removed have been cleaned and, for the most part, are ready to be reinstalled. I am also cleaning the wagon as I go , both all the oil from the engine failure and just dirt/grime from 100,000+ miles of use. Can't wait to get the MASSIVE 6AT and transfer case outta there! It is so big and so stupid.
I didn't take too many photos but here are a few.
Evan
Glorified paper-weight
I will probably pick up some more robust and taller stands to give me enough clearance to slide the trans in and out from under the wagon.
Dirty
Clean!
Custom "finish" on my lower rear strut brace, thanks to oil and fire!
The cooling line from the block was in need of replacing
All the fluids!
So flippin' functional
6AT cooling lines removed.....
...forever
Belt-driven accessories removed
Exhaust, heat shields, and driveshaft removed
Differential and axles removed
Some comparison shots of the 535xi 6AT differential vs the E60 M5 LSD